I think Moe is retarded | Moving Images Discussion (2024)

I think most moe anime is stupid (with some exceptions). I just was never able to get into it because of how the characters look (bigass glistening eyes and shit) sometimes its okay when the anime isn't trying to be serious (though i still hate it) but when an anime is trying to be serious and the characters are drawn in a cutesy way and the voice actors are trying to sound cute it just fucks it up (elfen lied is a good example).

Even Hayao Miyazaki thinks its retarded and he hates most modern otakus because of it

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Miyazaki's opinions do not make a word law, despite what some may claim.

Moe is something that can be really good if it's handled well, it's just a lot of moe anime is really generic. You complained that I had a lot of moe of my favorite list (which there aren't, btw), but a lot of those shows are still good regardless, things like Azumanga Daioh and Haruhi Suzumiya aren't exactly generic, the way they use moe is still handled in a non-pandering way.

I also think moe can be good for serious shows, dependent. Ignoring you example of Elfen Lied, because that show is shit anyway, another show I have on my list is Higurashi. That's a show that uses moe in order to make it more creepy, the way it handles it is a really good balance.

TripleA9000 wrote:

Even Hayao Miyazaki thinks its retarded and he hates most modern otakus because of it

implying Totoro isn't moe as fuck.

When I read the thread title I thought we were talking about this Moe

To sum up my thoughts, basically what 21 said hits the nail on the head for me. Miyazaki's word is not law just like the word of Lauren Faust, Egoraptor (implying anyone takes Egoraptor seriously anymore), and Nostalgia Critic is not law. We are free thinkers, we should make our own opinions based on facts and not the opinions of others. Personally, Moe is not to my taste. Even the good/popular moe anime aren't enjoyable to me. Calling them retarded is a pretty harsh low blow though.

Well it should be pretty easy to avoid moe if you don't like it. Seriously there's no lack of anime that are the exact opposite and it's not like people are trying to shove moe down your throat. If someone suggests one to you just say "nah bro, I don't really like moe" and move on.

(Sorry if that seemed a bit harsh, I just really don't like it when people go out of their way to say they find something stupid when no one is forcing you to participate in said stupid thing)

> not liking moe anime

But seriously, I think that moe anime is perfectly fine in the right context. It just has it's own style. Personally, my tastes in anime can vary quite a bit, and I like both moe anime and more serious works.

I really like moe anime because i like the pleasant cuteness of the characters, and because it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I really like cute things, so a cute anime is really nice as well.

It's especially nice because of the contrast it can have with more serious anime. It can be a nice break after watching a heavier anime. It's a nice simple palate cleanser after the crazy roller coaster ride some of the heavier stuff can be.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, Miyazaki isn't the authority on all anime, and just because he doesn't like something, doesn't mean I am obligated not to like it as well.

If it doesn't work for you, there's not really anything wrong with that. Just don't watch it. There isn't any particular reason why the rest of us shouldn't watch it if we want to though.

As was pointed out, It doesn't matter what Miyazaki thinks. Alan Moore also said that comic books are for kids and its weird so many adults are into the Marvel movies. Should I consider his opinion more valid than others because of who he is? Of course not.

Anyways, I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said.
just this….

Checkmate atheists.

Also, maybe I just have a stricter definition of what constitutes a moe show, but I don't think Elfen Lied is moe. A cute character doesn't make a show moe for me, it has to be consistent throughout amongst the characters. Also, I personally think Elfen lied is in the love it or hate it group. I can see why people hate it, but I like it even with its flaws.

I think the most important thing is context. Having a moe character in a slice-of-life / upbeat / comedic show that doesn't have to be taken seriously seems fitting. But having a moe character in something like Blue Literature would be jarring and completely destroy the tone being set.

I'm probably gonna receive flak for this (mostly because my understanding of what 'moe' is), but I don't like the moe archetype at all. I think it's a crutch for character designers who can't be bothered with making an actual character, much like the 'comic relief' or the 'village idiot' or the 'wise old man'. Having a character whose sole purpose is to be a young, innocent, helpless character that's excessively portrayed a beautiful is nothing short of annoying as they don't add anything to the setting other than their existence.

That being said, I have watched, and enjoyed watching:
Azumanga Daioh
Chuunibyou demo Koi ga Shitai!
Clannad
Nichijou
Sketchbook: Full Color's
Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu

And I'm sure there would be someone who would say, "But those shows have tons of moe characters!"

Azumanga, Nichijou and Sketchbook are all about kids in school, being kids, doing kids stuff. There are no "I feel like I have to protect her!" moments or other characters falling head over heels for no reason other than "because she's cute". It's fine.

Chuunibyou is about a girl who's having trouble with growing up / acting her age and is being cutesy and mysterious because is was fun for her to do so when she was younger. It's fine.

Clannad is a romantic visual novel. If you were expecting something else, then you came to the wrong neighbourhood, Senpai.

The only one I'm unsure about is The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. Young Asahina is the definition of what I don't like. I might just like the series because of Kyon.

Also. I've forgotten where I was going with this, so I'll summarise. If a character is made to be excessively cutesy, innocent, pretty and have other characters be their sword and shield for the sole purpose of pandering to the viewer, that's bad. If they are made to be that way because of the character's upbringing, or personal history or any other contextual reason within the story itself, it's fine.

@GoingMenthol

The only one I’m unsure about is The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. Young Asahina is the definition of what I don’t like. I might just like the series because of Kyon.

Fite me irl m8, u gon get rekt fgt.

I agree. I really dislike "moe" anime (didn't even know it had a name). I feel design wise it's not actually that cute and actually kind of ugly in some cases. It can work and look cute, but even then a lot of the time they feel limited yo only being cute. I really like characters that aren't stereotypically cute but even when they look monstrous to do cute things and sometimes act cute (one of my favourite examples is Man-Thing during the Marvel Civil War, when he offers a frog to a SHIELD agent because he doesn't understand him).

I also find anime and manga with those characters tend to be the kind I don't like, this is just a personal thing but slice of life shows are just boring to me.

Dac wrote:

As was pointed out, It doesn’t matter what Miyazaki thinks. Alan Moore also said that comic books are for kids and its weird so many adults are into the Marvel movies. Should I consider his opinion more valid than others because of who he is? Of course not.

No, but it's perfectly valid to use their points and some of their arguments you agree with or the arguments they used to convince you, especially if they word it better then you think you could.

Also Alan Moore said superhero comics were for kids, which is correct as that was the original target audience for superhero comics. The rest of it was moore to do with him just stating his opinion, which is what your point is about.

@Spyder-byte
The point is that using Miyazaki’s opinions to strengthen your own opinion based on the fact that he is a prominent figure in anime is an appeal to authority.

it’s perfectly valid to use their points and some of their arguments you agree with or the arguments they used to convince you, especially if they word it better then you think you could.

Had the op said, "Miyazaki made an excellent point when he said"blah blah" ". Then you would have a point and I probably wouldn't have said anything. Op's exact words were

Even Hayao Miyazaki thinks its retarded and he hates most modern otakus because of it

That's a textbook example of appealing to authority, though op stated that that was not his intention.

Ah, got it. Yeah, my only point was this

Should I consider his opinion more valid than others because of who he is? Of course not.

By all means, go ahead and quote people when they make good points.

I don't exactly hate moe anime and I can't really judge them since I've never seen one, but I sort of have grown to loathe the influence moe has on internet culture. Moe is just like ponifying was back in its day (and still sort of is) how everything on the face of the planet needs to have big glistening anime eyes and overly cute, small features that look nearly the same on every single one except for a change in clothes, hair, and eye color. The base face is nearly identical on everything though. Also, it's not like there's just like one or two moe versions of something like ponifying does. For moe fan-art it can actually take up most or at least half of the art for something.

It's not too awful and I don't lose sleep over it, but it's a little annoying especially after soooo much of it.

Now that I think about it, MLP is practically moe.

I almost completely understand what you mean. I admitting like moe, but I also feel uncomfortable when I see that there is so much ponification. I think that part of me understand that certain things just isn't for me, and I agree that while those still bother me, I don't let it ruin my life or anything.

Maybe my only thing is that I feel like I understand why people like to moe everything, there is quite a lot of people who like cute things. Maybe it's the same with ponification, except without the pony part.

I think most moe anime is stupid (with some exceptions). I just was never able to get into it because of how the characters look (bigass glistening eyes and shit) sometimes its okay when the anime isn’t trying to be serious (though i still hate it) but when an anime is trying to be serious and the characters are drawn in a cutesy way and the voice actors are trying to sound cute it just fucks it up (elfen lied is a good example).

I think most Disney animation is stupid (with some exceptions). I just was never able to get into it because of how the characters look (bigass glistening eyes and shit) sometimes its okay when the Disney cartoon isn’t trying to be serious (though i still hate it) but when Disney is trying to be serious and the characters are drawn in a cutesy way and the voice actors are trying to sound cute it just fucks it up (Bambi is a good example).

I think most Nickelodeon shows is stupid (with some exceptions). I just was never able to get into it because of how the characters look (bigass glistening eyes and shit) sometimes its okay when Nickelodeon isn’t trying to be serious (though i still hate it) but when Nickelodeon is trying to be serious and the characters are drawn in a cutesy way and the voice actors are trying to sound cute it just fucks it up (Hey Arnold is a good example).

I think most Pixar movies is stupid (with some exceptions). I just was never able to get into it because of how the characters look (bigass glistening eyes and shit) sometimes its okay when Pixar films isn’t trying to be serious (though i still hate it) but when Pixar is trying to be serious and the characters are drawn in a cutesy way and the voice actors are trying to sound cute it just fucks it up (Up is a good example).

Hmmm. Everyone here is talking about how Moe is bad this, bad that but I feel that this is far too subjective and could be argued in similar ways for everything. In other words this is all just opinion.

I think some of you need to loosen up a little. Moe is just an art style. There's nothing wrong with it. And like all art styles, the quality is subjective.

Art has as all the liberty it needs to be designed and styled in any way it likes while still expressing any kind of seriousness to match. Whether or not you agree with an art decision or it appeals to your specific taste is irrelevant. Moe isn't made any less just because you personally aren't making sense of it. It's still enjoyed by plenty of other people who are not you, who feel it is cute and is enjoyable and not retarded in the slightest.

If you aren't into Moe, that's fine but remember: you don't need to be a dick about it. Like all pictures on the internet you can choose to ignore it and leave it be to those who do like it. There's no need to be upset

I don't watch Moe anime, but honestly I don't see whats so bad about it. If an anime wants to address serious issues while still looking cute and adorable. Whats stopping it?

That's a mug you don't wanna chug! OH YEAH

I was never one to follow anime. I'm assuming from what I'm getting, moe is like that "anime girl stereotype" where eveything is "cute and massive eyes" and such. Am I right?

Because I never was really into that thing. It looks too.. cartoonish (I know, it's anime, but with the realism in animes, it just seems like something that stands out as different, and not for the good)

"moe" basically means to cutify something, something like this

I think largely the hate for Moe things is the fact that it has a lot of over-saturation, and a lot of times an anime's only selling point is the moe character designs. I mean heck, if there are two things that will nail a potential audience for your anime work, it's the Animated Intro and the Character Designs.

However, I don't think Moe by itself is bad. I might be alone on this but I went to highschool with a girl who was pretty much EXACTLY that archetype. But I also had the annoying fangirl, the tall call of duty nerd, the Star Wars geek who refused to shave a single day in his life but his beard hadn't grown beyond a fuzz yet, the awkward catholic kid, etc etc etc.

But that just goes to show: If you have Balance in your cast, you overall appeal to more people. Not that I don't like me some loli's (bullets fills the screen), but I like to be able to break away from that and watch something like the Fate series, where there are Moe characters present but are not cute for the sake of being such. (Heck, it's actually Forced and Awkward when one of the girls tries to be a cutesie otaku girl)

With the exception of Ilya. She's insanely small and adorable just to contrast with her 12 foot tall Tarzan Demon Servant.

On the topic of Contrast, somebody said earlier that Higurashi's saturation of Moe girls actually helped it immensely, and I completely agree. In cases like that, the contrast between the cutesie moe fun and fingernails getting ripped off just increases the dramatic effect of said fingernails getting ripped off further. I think famously this also worked for Madoka where they tricked you with the OVERLY cutesie art style going in but tore off heads by the 3rd episode and where giving characters Existential Trauma by the 6th.

But what about the other way, when there is ONLY sexy females? I guess that applies more to other media types than Anime, but the same logic applies. A complete over-saturation of sexy women subtracts the value said women have when only compared next to sexy women (Looking at you Superhero Comics). I know a guy who can't stand the way sexy high heeled women in movies walk because despite how subtle it's supposed to be they are "like they are a reskinned video game character".

You start running into the exact same problems with any sort of media that does this archetype oversaturation strategy in order to market towards the larger crowds. Not just Moe, not just Sword Users in Smash, not just Burly 'Murican Hero Dude-Bros, not just Superheros who wear Spandex and their underwear on the outside of their pants, but with any Archetype. Moe Anime just happens to be something more Alienating because of the Cultural Shock value.

I don't know if moe has a concrete definition. But one thing I will say is that I don't agree with TripleA9000's definition of what constitutes a moe show. I believe he said 21 had a lot of moe shows on his list when there were only a couple. I am more conservative when it comes to calling a show a moe show.
For me, a moe show is one that is consistent in its character designs among its characters as well as many of them having personality traits that make them cute. having a cute character or two does not make a show moe for me. because then a show like Steins;Gate could be considered moe because it has Mayuri and Faris. Gurren Lagann has Nia, she is very moe. Bakemonogateri has many cute characters, but I struggle with calling it a moe show.

I don't know, moe is just very ill defined, but if I feel like OPs definition of what is a "moe show" is my main issue with the original post. Moe blobs are terrible and there is no one denying it, but to call cute character designs retarded or stupid all together is just to much of a generalization. Now, for the last picture he used to illustrate moe.
These characters could easily fall under that definition.


Yes, they are cute, but I really struggle with lumping them with the characters commonly associated with moe.
Shows I consider moe are:

Upotte
Sabagebu
Girls und Panzer
Lucky Star
Moon phase
Strike witches
Yuru Yuri
K-on

Here is wikipedia's list of traits commonly found in moe characters

large eyes (1/5 size of face)
small nose
flat face
tall iris
body 5.7 heads tall
thin limbs
large head (bobbleheadlike)
colorful hair
bangs over eyes
neotenized face
large pupils
anime antenna hair called ahoge (アホ毛?)

@Dac

i wasn't defining a moe show so much as i was defining the moe art style

But yeah a moe show would be a show where the majority of the characters are drawn in the moe style

While there is a kind of moe style, from my understanding, moe is a lot more than just the character design. As Dac mentioned, it has a lot to do with the personality of the characters and the whole feeling of wanting to protect them (at least this is what I've come to understand about moe, as I believe a lot of the actual concept gets lost in translation). For example, the previously mentioned Nichijou has very moe character designs, but is far from being a moe show, landing more in the realm of absurdist humour.

On the topic of the art style, I do find it kind of goofy and sometimes annoying if the characters heads are disproportionately large, but not large enough to be comical to me. Most of the time I'm pretty meh towards the whole thing. I don't really like it, but it's not enough to make me hate a show.

For reference to people who aren't as familiar with anime, I'd say a show like Hidamari Sketch is a 10 on the moe scale in terms of art style,

while something like Monster is as far from moe as you can get.

Now i do agree that 'moe' Anime is pretty terrible, but i am not convinced using Hayao Miyazaki as a reference point will help.

I don't like any of his films and i find that this is by far the worst example:

Why does everyone think everything I say is bait.

Anime is actually shit.

And you actually shit for being weebs.

There is no circumstance in which "I think Moe is retarded" could constitute "real discussion".

#UnderFireFromWeebPatrol

Gonna throw my two cents into this. As other had stated there is a context for this. Moe is usually best in Slice of Life stuff, parodies and comedies. However it would be polarizing in "darker/gritter" genres that aren't parodies (like action series [I'm not sure if Magical Girl shows count, but if they do they are the exception]) unless it is either done well or goes to great lengths to subvert the associated concepts (Madoka Magica being an example on the subversion of innocence, helplessness may or may not also be messed with depending on opinion)

I also think it is also polarizing because of a perception that it promotes a kind of lust towards childlike charterers, due to the Lolicon concept (and maybe stereotypes of otaku in general), However I don't think this is an inherent problem with the concept.

Another factor is an element of realism vs. fantasy. Would you expect to take a 10 year old genius seriously? Depends on the tone an context? Would you see a group of young (kids or teenaged) innocent women as as doctors, lawyers, policemen, warriors or teachers in a realistic and serious setting? probably not, but it all depend son context and how they act.

I think hatred of the concept all boils down to 4 things: perception, realism, sexualization (wither in canon by way of Rule 34) and pandering, maybe double standards as well.